I see that you are holding your ground! I think that this discussion has produced some healthy, balanced exchanges. Read JockAndRolls first contribution. His father failed him on the "guy talk". (So, not all men do what is needed by their sons.)
It is beautiful how his father's best buddy stepped in and told him the "guy things" that every boy longs to hear from a man who bonds with him. I think all men should do that for each other. In fact, that is what this web site is doing. We are sharing the male bonding that we got, or did not get, and we are feeling supported by hearing each other's stories. We are filling in the blanks in our lives with this brotherhood bonding. You are invited to feel the love.
We all agree that BIKE, in blaming single mothers, greatly overstated that case. We all agree with that. I spent a lot of time researching and listing the real reasons why jock sales died. I think it would be fair for you to say something positive about my efforts to identify the real reasons, instead of spending all your energy attacking the fact that the single mother issue can be a legitimate but a minor factor.
You use the word ludicrous (absurdity that incites scorn). That is a strong word. (I have only heard that word used by highly educated gay males, and only when they were feeling vindictive. I don't like that attack word.) Does this discussion have to be so black-and-white?
FAMILY STORIES
Different women have different feelings about jockstraps. My mother did not like us to wear them. She didn't like her skinny 11 year old son showing a huge jockstrap waist band above my swim trunks. My Dad thought it was great! She though males looked better in boxers that "didn't show so much graphic detail". We had 4 boys in the house and with a dad, there were jockstraps all over the place. Not my mother's dreams.
They got divorced in later years and my youngest brother, raised by my mother, has a deep hatred for men. He is not gay, but he looks for affection with men (and will sometimes accept sex) to compensate for the hunger in his heart. He is a bitter psychological mess. His own son is a worse emotionally crippled mess.
I have heard countless women complain that men are always "itching" themselves down there, especially baseball players on TV as they get up to bat. They don't understand that we are not "itching". We are adjusting. Balls and cocks can get in uncomfortable positions, sometimes all day long if your underwear aren't helping. Women don't figure it out because they don't have balls themselves. And the baseball player up to bat doesn't want to have a maladjusted cup when the takes a power swing.
On the other hand, my daughter suggested her son wear a jock, even though the other guys in school did not. She knew to suggest jocks because she had a father (me) to teach her about men. How many women know to do that?
Her son did not take her advice. He wanted to be like the other boys. Something went wrong with one of his balls playing soccer. She was the one who took caution and got him immediately to the doctor. His dad might not have. It turns out that he came close to losing one of his balls due to testicular trauma, strangulation of the chords. He had to have immediate surgery. It saved his nut.
So, I do not have stereotypes for women. But there was a grandpa behind the scenes in this story, who hopes to have great grandchildren someday.
I think that in general, men (biological "ball carriers") understand men's bodies better than women do. Saying this is not being sexists. It's just my experience.
MENTORS AND BUDDIES
After WW2 many men did not come home. The men of the community made sure that they included the fatherless boy in guys events because people used to think that every boy needed a man to love him. Today 50% of boys are fatherless, and it has become common. Becoming common does not mean that there are not unfulfilled needs. If you want to go far back in human history women who got pregnant with no husband were stoned, because a fatherless boy was seen as a useless drain on the tribe. Historically, you are going to have trouble documenting the uselessness of a father's parenting.
I have been involved in programs for the Boy Scouts of America and had the opportunity to show love and guidance for many boys with no fathers, or with fathers who didn't provide all their needs. I received a national award for my influence in the program. So, my ideas have been well received on a large scale.
I have been in many adult (straight) men's groups, where we talk deeply about our inner feelings and needs. Do you speak from experience too? Have you ever held a man in your arms until 2:00 in the morning while he sobbed and cried because he never had a father to love him and teach him? There are plenty of them out there.
As a side note, I took local boys on vigorous outdoor and athletic experiences. The boys with single mothers were less likely to wear jocks than the boys with dads or brothers. In these cases, I was the mentor to tell them the benefits of jocks and to find the courage to tell their mothers that they want to try a jockstrap. And that they might have to try several brands before they find the brand they like. It was often difficult and embarrassing for them to bring this up with their mothers. I'm asking you to show respect for my experience and not call it ludicrous.
If you have a dad, or a male mentor, to tell you to stand tall in the gang shower room when you have the shortest cock in site, you will never forget his instructions to be proud. You will honor him when the temptation to feel insecure arises. You have that bonding moment to stand on for the rest of your life. I cannot believe that many single mothers understand all the things that a guy needs to hear. There are lots of things that a guy needs to hear from a man.
Many men had an older brother, a cousin, or an older teen who they admired tell them the wisdom of wearing a jock. And so the guy wears jocks the rest of his life. Nothing can measure up to the advice from an admired mentor who accepts you and invites you to participate in what the cool guys do.
Rites of passage, that cements your identity for your life, is being initiated by another. It's not something you can chose for yourself. You have to be invited. A mother can raise a son with strong character traits. But a mother cannot initiate the boy into the world of men, in the thousand ways that a boy with a father gets it.
Boys show love by teasing their best buddies, even insulting each other. This strengthens you. To be able to take ridicule from your buddies who love you and accept your differences. Then when the bullies insult your differences, you do not have thin skin and you don't crumble.
I never met a woman who you could tease like men enjoy teasing each other. You will lose your wife if you tease her the way you treat your buddies. There are different cultures between women and men, and in general, one cannot teach what the other can.
Men teach challenge, and how to handle challenge. Women are nurturing. It is not sexist to acknowledge the differences between the genders, nor to suggest that in an ideal society children would somehow get nurtured by both.
Again, we all agree with you that BIKE was wrong in placing all the blame for their loss of sales on single mothers. But, instead of using your strong accusatory words against us for saying that most single mothers usually do not know how to do what a father can do, I think it would be for your own good to join the group and enjoy the male-exclusive support that the brothers are sharing with each other in this conversation.
It is a beautiful thing for men to love each other deeply, gay or straight. It doesn't matter. I'm not seeing any of that from you. You are invited.
You could be joining us in the sharing of male virtues, instead of rejecting us because we are talking about things that we did not get from women.
I would like to hear you say something joyous about JockAndRoll's story, if you cannot give some credit to mine. You are invited to participate in and benefit from what men can uniquely do for other men.
